Battery problems

Forum for Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU
mikesmorris
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai - J11 (2013–2017)

Post by mikesmorris »

thanks for that - will give it a go. was totally unaware of that system

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MikeGC
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Location: Stockport
Qashqai Model: Mk.3 Qashqai - J12 (2021+) New Model

Post by MikeGC »

thanks calnorth, fascinating
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gvmdaddy
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Post by gvmdaddy »

0F4C7C28-38AE-4AAD-B14D-00BCF8CC8D34.png

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calnorth
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Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–2021)

Post by calnorth »

As post shows above, battery terminal volts will have some variance and if under 11 volts is certainly not good. Meaning that if this value or lower is often seen, either the charging frequency and length is poor or the battery is not able to store charge. A healthy battery measurement with engine off should not fall below 12 volts over long periods. I've always expected a battery to function for at least 5 years but must be kept adequately charged. If not the battery internal chemical state will degrade and result is gradual loss of voltage and current delivery at the battery terminals...internal electrical effect is known as increased internal resistance.

Remember that a starter motor will draw a very large current known as crank current and can be in the region of 60 to 100 Amps - warm engine oil. Higher for a cold crank. Its a short period crank but a battery that has an excessive internal resistance won't deliver that current and at 12 or so volts. An electrician (RAC/AA man) will test the battery with an instrument that is a very low resistance high wattage resistor for about 20 seconds. A meter mounted in series/parallel with the resistor will indicate current delivery and terminal voltage. The said resistor will likely glow a bit.

Maximum charge volts applied by the car Alternator is about 14.75 volts and is regulated/limited internally by its regulator. To charge a battery correctly with an external battery charger takes about 8 hrs minimum (is called the 10 hour rate actually). Thats a safety parameter in that the battery is not excessively or over charged by a higher voltage/current/time combination. The Alternator does the same thing but depending on car use will likely not equal the external battery charger 10 hr rate.

I disable the daft Stop/Start engine game at traffic lights etc...knocking the life off a very expensive foreign made battery I don't find in anyway sensible...putting it mildly!

The on board Service Menu is useful to us in that we are able to keep an eye on the battery terminal voltage which is a good indicator of battery health over time. So keep an eye on it periodically....
Mk2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–and onward)
1.6 Dig-T N-Connecta
mikesmorris
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai - J11 (2013–2017)

Post by mikesmorris »

problem posting at moment - this might be a repeat - sorry - but this is latest!. 1.2digT auto. one month old battery - second warranty replacement! . Have accessed service menu. cold overnight unstarted 12.55V On startup 12.7V After 6 mile warmup run around 13.3V stopstart not kicking in. Any thoughts appreciated. thanks Mike
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calnorth
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Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–2021)

Post by calnorth »

mikesmorris wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:03 pm problem posting at moment - this might be a repeat - sorry - but this is latest!. 1.2digT auto. one month old battery - second warranty replacement! . Have accessed service menu. cold overnight unstarted 12.55V On startup 12.7V After 6 mile warmup run around 13.3V stopstart not kicking in. Any thoughts appreciated. thanks Mike
Looks normal Mike....so far.
Do that for the next 10 days and log it (results table) by date and time. Include temperature. And post the log here at the 10 day point. This could give you some evidence to fling at somebody. Operate the car as normal and that led to battery failure.

Had some thoughts about the 0.25A current leakage. Electronically loaded cars like the QQ have an ACC function...Accessory. This applies power to the car as would an earlier ignition key on part turn. When the ignition key is turned off/removed the car is mainly power dead. Perhaps the only current being drawn would by very tiny and by an old/earlier car alarm system.

The QQ enables the said ACC function on I-key unlock select or door handle request button press. Quite a bit of electrical equipment is initialised/run ready for start? So the questions are.... if you close all doors and leave the car unlocked whats the current drawn value? Would that account for near enough 0.25A? I'm not saying it would but do car testers know? My view is that the car is in one of a number of electrical states all the time....including battery disconnected.

Some of this gets quite perverse.
Colin
Mk2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–and onward)
1.6 Dig-T N-Connecta
mikesmorris
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai - J11 (2013–2017)

Post by mikesmorris »

thanks for that Colin. I plan to do that. I would like to be able to measure the sleep current draw myself. I have (and can use) a multimeter and it seems the way to do it is to disconnect the neg battery lead and connect the meter between the lead and the battery post. My concern at trying this is what data or codes might be lost in disconnecting the battery. Any thoughts please? Mike
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calnorth
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Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–2021)

Post by calnorth »

On looking around QQ repair documents the Electronic Management System (EMS) will log a battery disconnect and keep DTCs in memory. And there is a procedure to disconnect along the lines of turn the ignition off with the driver door open and wait at least 5 mins for the ACC voltage to drop off. I couldn't get my Batt +ve cable off the Batt post and looked as if it needed a large screwdriver levering...so I stopped right there.

Personally, I wouldn't do a series connection to the battery with a simple multimeter on a car. You may get a current draw more than the meter can handle. At the moment I'd take it that the 0.25A may not be constant and that the person who tested it wasn't all that proficient. It could lead you on a wild goose chase thing?

Some sensing electronics are directly connected to the Battery and Alternator as a condition/state system I note. That includes a sensor to measure battery current flow...interesting but not available to us. Some of that could be consuming all or part of the time and may account for your 0.25A....to some extent? The alarm system and I-key system will be powered also. I have an awkward Nissan diagram of it all which may not be 100% correct. But at this level I think it is. Although this diagram shows a 450A fuse link between Battery and Alternator....typo?

The battery flattening problem I experienced on a Ford Titanium thing was the Alternator (rectifier diode dead) and me for not driving long enough after that. The diode killed a 4 year old battery actually. I got a £50 spare battery on standby immediately.

I'd take the 0.25A as a mild irritation at the moment and just monitor the battery volts behaviour. Fuses in the car are 5A and higher so 0.25A is not a lot
Mk2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–and onward)
1.6 Dig-T N-Connecta
mikesmorris
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai - J11 (2013–2017)

Post by mikesmorris »

Hi again. The auto electrician (not Nissan dealer) who identified the parasitic draw didn't have an axe to grind as I had told him I was battling Nissan dealer to get a warranty fix and paid him for the test. He showed me the meter reading and stated that level of drain/draw will kill the new battery prematurely. The main dealer when presented with the specialist report said their electrician got a lower and acceptable reading - but they did have own agenda as they didn't want to do a difficult system check to identify the leak and they wouldn't quote me the draw reading they allege they get. I am stuck in the middle with prospect of replacing batteries every few months now at my expense as warranty is expired. Hence I would like to do the test myself but still nervous about disconnecting battery and losing settings? Have trawled web for hours but can't find definite info as to whether I can just take off neg lead or not! If I can demonstrate same level of leakage as independent specialist did I reckon I have a reasonable chance of forcing Nissan to fix it (flying pig just passing over!). My other car is a Triumph Herald - i just replace bits of wire that fail! cheers mike
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calnorth
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Qashqai Model: Mk.2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–2021)

Post by calnorth »

Mike...if the dealer had performed a "parasitic draw test" (meter in series) would he give you a written statement that the value identified is acceptable? That would transfer responsibility to Nissan of course.

The old lengthy test would be to connect the meter and pull each fuse separately till they got to the sub system(s) drawing current. Could cause network wake up? Below is a method of non circuit invasion for parasitic test. Uses a chart of fuse resistances to current flow in measuring volt drop across fuse....interesting and fair indicator by the look of it. Never done it but would save my Fluke fuses thats for sure!



I don't know what the cars EMS/network shutdown time is (sleep). But a number of things could wake it up leading to volt drops across a few fuses? So the car needs to be ignition off, driver door and bonnet open. Don't touch I-key. Parasite draw test across fuses as above at 10 minutes and again about 1 hour later...something like that?

Here's a link to two alleged J11 repair docs to download: (LHD and RHD models)

BATTERY OUT/IN:

PG+-+POWER+SUPPLY+GROUND+&+CIRCUIT+ELEMENTS
GI+-+GENERAL+INFORMATION

https://cardiagn.com/nissan-qashqai-mod ... ir-manual/

Need a good read through. GI last page (table) has detail about Batt installation procedure. Did the non Nissan electrician perform any post Batt installation calibration/adjustments? I wouldn't think so unless systems specified in the last GI table had been changed...namely throttle stuff related to Engine Control (HR).

Colin
Mk2 Qashqai Facelift - J11b (2017–and onward)
1.6 Dig-T N-Connecta
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